OLD LYME PLANNING COMMISSION
SECOND WORKSHOP
PLANNING/ZONING, WETLANDS
AND OLD LYME FIRE DEPARTMENT
APRIL 14, 2008
PRESENT WERE: Harold Thompson, Chris Kerr, Steve Ross, Nancy Strohla, Bob Pierson, Connie Kastelwotiz, Janet Bechtel, Evan Griswold, Dave McCulloch, Dave Jewett, Steve Super, Tom Swaney, Ann Brown and Kim Groves.
Thompson stated there were a number of items discussed at the last meeting held in March and there are minutes are available from that meeting. He stated during the last meeting the process of how applications are referred to various reviewing agencies and the timeframe in which they are referred was discussed. The committee agreed it would be beneficial to the applicant to begin negotiations with the Old Lyme Fire Department earlier in the process rather than waiting until the application reached the Planning Commission. Therefore, when the Wetlands Commission receives the application it will be forwarded to the Old Lyme Fire Department for their review and input prior to submission to the Planning Commission.
Evan Griswold asked Mr. Thompson if applicants generally came to the commission for preliminary discussions prior to submittal of a formal application. Thompson stated about fifty percent of the applicants engage in preliminary discussions with the commission. Griswold suggested when possible the applicant be referred to both the Wetlands Commission and Fire Department at that time as well. Griswold stated this would be helpful to both the developer and the reviewing agencies.
Brown asked if the Old Lyme Fire Department had any written guidelines that the Land Use Office could give to developers along with their regulations. Jewett stated that the hose tender has about 2000 feet of water supply hose on it. Jewett stated the ISO uses many different types s of criteria when they set the ISO rating for the town. He provided some background information from an online resource. Jewett submitted a list of the fire wells in town. He also provided a letter from McDonald and Sharpe & Associates dated October 13, 1998, in which a Fire Pond Assessment was conducted. This list included the estimated pond capacities at a 50-year frequency drought as well as the sites that are tidal and would have a capacity well in excess of pumping.
Ann Brown asked Dave Jewett if had been contacted by Ted Crosby about putting these fire well locations onto a GIS map. Jewett indicated he had not been contacted. Ann Brown stated she would provide Ted Crosby with a copy of the locations. Jewett stated that all of the fire well locations are listed at a dispatch center. He stated the dispatch center tells them over the air if they are within 2,000 ft of the address or if a shuttle will be required.
Thompson stated that based on the information discussed it appears that the town is reviewing the needs for fire ponds or fire tanks on a case by case basis. He stated the preferred position from the Fire Department would be to have wells instead of tanks if possible. Thompson said the question is for the locations that do require tanks how will the town deal with the them long-term as far as maintenance and replacement when required.
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Workshop April 14, 2008
Jewett also expressed concern because we have some existing fire wells in developments that the adjacent property owners or association is not willing to maintain (cut brush back) to allow access . He stated that the property owners are not willing to do it so the town crew gets stuck with the burden and they have to get permission from the association to do the work. Thompson discussed establishing an escrow account into which funds would be deposited when the development is built that would cover the future costs of the tank. Kim Groves stated that very often associations do not stay intact after a period of time.
Ross stated at the time of construction a private road is a benefit but as soon as it needs some work done the property owners on that street want it to become a town road because they don’t want to be responsible for the maintenance of the road. Ross further stated that he looks at these tanks as a measure of last resort, therefore, just as the town replaces its fire equipment when it gets worn out, outdated or in need of replacement the tanks should also be replaced as part of the towns infrastructure, and this would ensure that they remain a reliable water source to that development.
Pierson stated that at the last meeting Janet Bechtel raised concerns about sucking a water source dry. Pierson stated if a fire is extinguished with a cistern that water goes back into the ground and eventually does get back into the area, whereas if tanks are used a water source is be sucked from another area and it is totally removed away from that area and obviously will not regenerate. He further stated any water that is used to put out a house fire eventually goes back into the ground.
Pierson asked if the town received a permit from the state when they clean out all of the drainage ditches in town. He stated just the annual cleaning of those ditches puts more silt into the water than the Fire Departments will in its entire life time. He also wondered if the Fire Department could fall under this permitting process and this would alleviate some of the fears when a well has to be cleaned. He stated if so this could possibly be done under the same state guidelines.
McCulloch stated he recently met a retired firemen from Deep River at which time they discussed tanks. He said this fireman indicated they do have buried tanks and he felt it was comforting to know there is at least some water readily available. Jewett stated it is difficult to tell if there is water in a tank. He stated often they go to the A & P Shopping Center for a fire alarm and there is no water available because a pool truck has pulled up and drained the water. Jewett explained there is no way of policing this type of action.
Thompson stated these issues would not be resolved in their entirety today, but the various commission members should continue to think about ideas and ways they could work toward a common goal. He thanked Fire Chief Jewett for the information he presented at the meeting. Thompson stated that the review process will be changed moving forward so that the Fire Department is able to review the plans as soon as they are submitted to a Land Use Department.
Griswold stated that the Wetlands Commission requires all the wetlands be flagged and described as far as their quality and quantity by a wetland scientist for any development. He stated that this gives the commission an idea of areas to be avoided or what areas would be suitable for a pond.
Pierson once again asked the commission members, now that they had a list provided of the fire wells in town, that they review the list and see if there is any historical information that shows there has been destruction to a pond or area as a result of fire protection.
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Workshop – April 14, 2008
McCulloch asked to what capacity the Fire Marshal was involved in the review process. McCulloch further stated during a recent application to their commission the applicant received conflicting information from the
Fire Marshal and Fire Chief. He stated this situation left the commission stuck in the middle. He therefore asked if there was a way to bring the Fire Marshal into the application process early as well. Pierson stated the commission has had problems in the past with the Fire Marshal’s involvement and feels the regulations are more than adequate. Pierson stated that the Fire Marshal should be providing the Fire Department with the requirements for a commercial building and the Fire Department should handle what the necessary requirement for water to fight a fire . The Planning Commission can handle the regulations as far as what that tank will be and the inspections required for a tank.
Jewett stated the Fire Marshal does not really know what the Fire Department has for equipment to get water to the scene. Jewett stated the Fire Marshal was more familiar with code requirements for commercial buildings. Bechtel asked if the Fire Marshal was more likely to interface with the building department on bringing the building up to code or constructing a new building that is fire code compliant and the Fire Department is all about what water is available to put out the fire. Pierson stated also a quick simple summation would be that the firemen put out the fire and the Fire Marshal determines what started the fire. Therefore, the fire department has a bigger concern about the water availability and the Fire Marshal has the education to analyze what started the fire.
Ann Brown asked if the size of the development would impact the size of the water supply required or would in not differ because one would only expect to have one house fire at a time. Jewett stated they require the 30,000 gallons and need to be able to supply 250 gallons a minute for 2 hours after the first five minutes of being on the scene. He stated this is how the ISO comes up with the rating.
Ann Brown asked if there is a subdivision that has public water does the Fire Department require hydrants every so often. Jewett stated he has been dealing with Connecticut Water. He stated we presently install them approximately every 2,000 feet because the town pays an annual fee per hydrant. Jewett said they used to do it on the size of the main that went down the road which meant the more water you receive from the hydrant the more it is worth but now it has been changed to a flat fee.
Evan Griswold asked how the ponds are maintained. Jewett stated the department has an inspection sheet and it tries to visit each site once a year but they are all volunteers and do the best they can. He stated he provides a copy of the inspection sheet to Public Works who then goes out and trims the area. Griswold asked if a fire pond begins to silt in who deepens the pond. Jewett said they consult with the First Selectmen as to how they should proceed. Jewett stated they have not had any digging activity in years at any of the fire ponds.
Thompson summarized what was discussed.
Changing the order of the review process for applications submitted.
Each development will be reviewed on a case by case basis working closely with the Fire Department to make sure that their needs are met while being sensitive about the wetlands and trying to avoid tanks whenever possible realizing the long term impact and maintenance of the tanks.
The commissions will review the information submitted by the Fire Department.
McCulloch offered to approach Deep River and see if they have any regulations that would be useful to the Town of Old Lyme with regard to this subject.
Respectfully submitted,
Kim Groves
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